December 2019 WAPL Transcript

Nick: Hello everyone, and welcome to the WAPL cast. My name is Nick Noel and I'm an instructional designer with MSU's IT services. The WAPL cast is our monthly recording of the web accessibility policy liaison's meeting that takes place at various locations around campus. If you'd like to come to a meeting, you can check out our schedule at web access dot MSU dot EDU.

December's meeting was a bit of a year in review meeting, where we talked about the various things that groups had been up to around campus around accessibility. There's a lot of interesting projects and activities going on, so give it a listen to see what's going on around campus. And that'll be it for 2019. We'll be back in 2020.

Charlie Ruggierio: So welcome to the College of Ed. Nate said we had five minutes and no more than 10. I don't know why Jeremy got more time than us, but-

Speaker 3: Jeremy's a cheater.

Charlie Ruggierio: Did you cheat?

So we cut down all the slides, we just cut them out. You guys are probably happy about that. So anyways, we're just going to get through this pretty quick, but we put together a five year plan. And it was super ambitious, and was going to have everything done by year three, and ... and we got to 150 and 250, which is by far our biggest courses done. But then, there wasn't much else done. And actually, we had one IT staff member assigned to accessibility. Faculty didn't really have buy-in. So, it ended up being transferred, accessibility, to me. And I still only had like five, ten percent of my time for it. But I think we realized that we needed to do something different. And so what we did is we came up with a plan, and these are all the issues that we kind of ran into.

But the draft plan was developed with faculty, grads, and instructors from the college of ed. We basically kind of let them talk about how they wanted to handle accessibility, and one of the things we put on the table was, we'll just straight up pay for remediation, initially, and then move on to training and everything like that. But they actually came back and they said that they really wanted to take ownership of this, and I thought they should, and so we were actually surprised by that and happy about it. So some of the things that we wanted to do was offer continuous training, and of course hire a web accessibility coordinator. So we hired Gabrielle on July 1st or somewhere around there. And she has two quarter time GA's that work for her. Funding comes from carry forward. And we notified all the faculty about this plan multiple times, but it went to the dean for approval, the chairs for approval, and then it was announced at the faculty retreat at the beginning of fall semester, which is a great way to get people's attention. Especially when the dean says, listen to Gabrielle, she has something to say.

And then I think this is Gabrielle's part.

Gabrielle: I'm just going to hold it, if that's fine. So that was kind of everything that happened before, and now what we're currently doing is, right now for this current semester, and spring 2020, we are auditing all online hybrid courses, and courses with large enrollment. So we're looking at auditing all of our large courses that have 100 plus enrollment across all sections. So if we have one course with four sections, that has 25 students in each section, that's still being looked at as well right now.

Every course section and instructor is receiving a report that's a breakdown of their course. And I'll show you at the end what that looks like. They're receiving that at the beginning of the semester, and then they're getting an updated version about mid-semester, to see if any changes have been made, and they're reflected in there. And then, a key note of what our plan is that a majority of all changes being made is being pushed on the instructors. We aren't going in and doing any of the remediation work. We are solely providing resources and trainings to faculty in order to make that happen.

So since we're putting this all on the faculty, here are a few ways that we're supporting them in that aspect. So I hold monthly wide trainings for the college every single month. Right now I'm doing about two to three. I think in January I have four scheduled. And those are just sign-up based, anyone who wants to come or has the time, can. They're set up workshop style, so the first hour or so, I'm just kind of talking through what we're doing, what we want you to change, and what we're specifically looking at. So if we're doing syllabi, I'll tell you all the changes that need to be made in your syllabi. And then the next hour, it's just an open time in a workroom to ask questions, make changes, do anything during that time that you want, really.

So in addition to those college wide trainings, I'm also offering one-on-one training, small group training, large group training by request. So anytime someone reaches out, "hey can we set up a meeting?" I'm like, absolutely. These range anywhere from 30 minutes to 90 minutes. Ranges anywhere from one person to I think my most recent one was about 35 faculty members at a faculty meeting, so that was great.

With the help of my two graduate assistants, we've put out about 20 plus video tutorials so far that are available on our media space channel, that we frequently link faculty to. And then we have our own website and the works for the college of ed. Just kind of as a central place to house all these resources and information to direct faculty to as well.

So some of the successes we've had so far. So far, for this fall semester, we have 10 fully accessible courses. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but considering I was pulled in July 1st, and we were at zero, this is a great start. And this is all from faculty. So this hasn't been us going in and actually doing any work. This was faculty going in and being like, okay I'm going to take this seriously from the start and actually make these changes. So that's been great to see so far.

Having two GA's has definitely been one of our success points, I would say, so far. I will say that both of the GA's that are working for me do not have any accessibility experience. They came in kind of like a clean slate. And so that was really great in a few ways. It pulled in a different perspective from outside teaching assistants, which was awesome. Because they're actually teaching some of the courses in our college, and they're like, oh, I'm learning about these things and I can actually apply it, not just support you supporting other faculty. And they've also been kind of a good talking point for other TA's and GA's that they are associates with, I've noticed. They'll be in a lot of conversations, and someone will ask them, "what assistantship are you doing?" And they'll be like, "oh I'm doing the accessibility one." They're like, "oh, you're the one sending out those reports." And it kind of gets the conversation going. And they've become a point of being like, "yeah it's actually pretty easy, and you should check out these things, like these are trainings we have going on." So, it's kind of nice to have two more people spreading this information just from word of mouth in all interactions, which has been really helpful.

Another success, I mentioned this before, but we've been having trainings with large faculty groups, which has been amazing just to see that each department is actually taking this seriously and making time for me. For this one specifically, it was at a faculty meeting. So they took an hour out of their faculty meeting to make time for me to come in and teach all of their instructors how to make their syllabi accessible, which was pretty awesome.

And then, something that has made this really successful from the start, is that all of our online coordinators have been so supportive. And they had that natural buy-in from the start, being like, yes we un ... not that we understand accessibility, but we understand it's importance, and we want to help support you in any way. So that has definitely been very helpful as well.

So humble brag moment. Check us out if you want to see any of the tutorials we're putting out. We have our own channel in mediaspace. It is college of education accessibility. All of our tutorials are there. We have Word tutorials, Google Doc tutorials, D2L tutorials, we're currently working on PowerPoint. We are also housing video recordings of all the trainings that I'm offering that are there too. So that's there. And then, I mentioned earlier how we're auditing our courses. Each instructor receives a tracking doc. So I have it here just to kind of show you what it looks like. And this was something that we made specifically for our faculty. It's not on there yet. Hold on. [inaudible 00:10:26]

Charlie Ruggierio: You want it bigger?

Gabrielle: Yeah.

Charlie Ruggierio: [inaudible 00:10:31]

Gabrielle: Yeah. Okay. So this is what the report looks like that each instructor receives. We go through and manually audit each course, and we break it down into these content areas. Since right now we're focusing on syllabi, Word docs, videos, images, and D2L html pages, so we're giving them specific feedback on those areas. But this is just kind of our inventory tool of being like, okay how many pieces of content do you actually have and where is it falling in. And then we're manually scanning through all of those document pieces and seeing if they're accessible or if they're not accessible from the start. If they aren't accessible, we're making note of it here, and saying what specific issues are actually there that need to be fixed. And then it's linked out to one of our video tutorials that we've made, or an outside tutorial if we haven't created it ourselves yet. And that happens for all the syllabi, Word docs, Google docs, D2L html pages, or videos. Anything in your course.

So even though we're pushing a lot on the instructors of saying these are the changes you need to make, we think that through this doc, we are supporting them fairly well by really giving them thorough feedback of their course and what the issues are, and providing them with the resources for them to be successful. And then at the bottom, we have a little action plan. So, like suggestions of what you should do. These are the steps you should take to kind of get your feet wet, get started. We kind of do like, okay in the next month, this is what you should do to get started. And then any additional comments that might need to be addressed, that maybe weren't previously. We have some things like PDFs and PowerPoints. We're not looking at it right now, so they're noted in the document, but we put in the comments, like, hey this is just to say we're not looking at them right now, but it'll be done in the future. And just kind of things like that.

So instructors receive a filled out copy of that at the beginning of the semester, and then about midway through. So. Yeah. That's all we've got for you. Does anyone have any questions about anything? And if anyone would like a copy of this, I'd be more than willing to share it as well. Yeah.

Speaker 3: You said your GA's had no prior experience doing themselves, so what were the qualifications you were looking for when you hired them?

Gabrielle: Charlie, that one might be on you. But honestly, I think they were randomly picked.

Charlie Ruggierio: Sorry, what was the question?

Gabrielle: How were the GA's selected?

Speaker 3: Yeah, what were their qualifications you were looking for?

Gabrielle: Wasn't it just random?

Charlie Ruggierio: So, we got them from one of the departments needed to have some GA's picked up as a part of the agreements they had made with them. And so we didn't really screen them in any way. We just were told that they ... we told the department head what we were hoping for, what they should do, and he told us, well, I think these two people would be good for you. But we didn't really have a choice, it was sort of like, here, you're working with these people. So.

Speaker 3: Cool.

Gabrielle: I will say, even though they don't have any accessibility experience, they are pretty tech savvy. Which is helpful. But their amount of technical knowledge is probably very similar to most people, so it's not like they had any ... being like, oh they have coding backgrounds so we're going to give them this assistantship. It was pretty random.

All right well thanks for listening to us, guys.

Damian: So I'm Damien Guillaume, I'm working in the College of Natural Science, with Jesse Earley. And I've been working in the last few months on a new accessibility checking tool, which can scan and look for accessibility issues on many websites at once, and then report statistics. So to explain how it started, I went to the IT Next Digital Access and Inclusion conference this year. And I listened to a Nate talk about accessibility on the web, and I think he was showing this picture on his presentation to describe the question of what MSU's door step looks like on the web. And that got me thinking, what does it look like actually? Do we have statistics about all MSU websites that present the whole picture of  the University. And I don't think we have anything like that. And I thought that would be something that could be pretty useful. Just to be able to compare different accessibility compliance among different websites, look at, find ways to measure progress also, from one year to the next, through all of MSU, in a comprehensive and consistent way among different colleges.

So I started working on the accessibility tool. The idea is to find ways to better measure web accessibility, check all websites with the same method, because currently I think each college has different methods to check for accessibility issues. And they choose the websites they want to focus on. They report independently. So I was thinking, if we use the same method throughout, that would give us some insight on what to focus on for accessibility. And find ways to measure progress.

Also, if we get good statistics, we can communicate better about accessibility because we know what to focus on. And educate content creators, by pointing out the most common issues. And also fix issues more efficiently. Again, because we know which issues are the most common, and are the most important ones that we need to focus on.

So I'm going to show quickly a little demo here. So this is a number of audits I've done in the past. I started in June here.

Charlie Ruggierio: Can you zoom in on that?

Damian: Yeah. Maybe I can do a little demo here. I'll start a new audit, and show you to see how it works. Let's start with MSU, for instance. You can choose [inaudible 00:18:21] I've picked the one for MSU. But you can choose to check sub domains automatically. So here what it's going to do, is it's going to look at all pages within MSU dot edu, and then follow links to other websites that end in dot MSU dot edu. You can choose a maximum crawling depth. You've probably used similar tools like that in the past. There are some free ones, that are rather limited. And even the commercial ones are limited too. For instance, you're often limited in crawling depth. Here, there's no limit. So you can choose 10 if you want. Maximum number of pages checked per domain. If you want to have a horizontal view, like, look at all the websites at MSU, you're not going to look at all the pages and all the websites, always. It would take you a long time. So you can restrict the number of pages checked per domain. I'll just leave it like that for now.

You can use site maps also, to discover pages more efficiently, and to be sure not to miss some pages. Because if you just follow links, you might miss some things. So if you're on websites is optimized for search engine optimization, you typically have a site map, so you can use it. You can include only some pages on websites by using a regular expression here. I'm thinking this can be used for, for instance, for the College of Ag, because they have all of their websites in the same domain. So if they want to check just one website, they'll have to use that. Otherwise it would check everything.

You can choose a web browser. So the way this works, is it's running a real web browser in the background. It's running the axe library with it. And checking the web pages as a real user would do. And yeah, another parameter is you can add a delay for dynamic pages. It's already automatically waiting for the page to settle before it's doing the accessibility check, but if there's something else going on afterwards, that might mess things up. So you can add a delay on top of it. Say 200 milliseconds, for instance. So let's start it here. Oops. [inaudible 00:20:48]. I need to reload and restart that.

I've recently added the user and group authorizations so that you can hide the results if you want to. I'm just going to leave the parameters like that for now. Okay so we are seeing it running in real time here. It's discovering URL's to check, automatically. And then you see the number of checked pages here. It's going pretty fast overall. And you'll see the number of accessibility violations that are being found.

Obviously if you want to run that around thousands of pages, you might want to put it on a server and let it run at night. I'm going to just stop it now for now, and look at the results. So we are already seeing some statistics here about the first few pages that have been checked. These are different categories. I've just reused the Deque's accessibility issue categories. And we have more details here about the different violations. The impact or so, that they have critical serious or not. So with statistics like that, it's easy to just look at the more common issues, or the more critical issues, and then you can use a press here and see what domains are impacted by these when you are checking several, and look into more details, the different pages, and for each page it's going to give you all the different HTML elements that are problematic.

From there, I usually just go through web browser and use the axe plugin for instance, to look on the page where the issue is precisely, but this gives basic information about where the issue is. So I can show you something I've done. Or lately that I've done for MSU. That's the last one I did. This was, I used a maximum depth of 6, 50 pages maximum per domain, and it checked 32,000 URLs and found 300,000 accessibility violations. It's only checking public websites. Nothing hidden behind a password.

Speaker 6: We have stuff to do, don't we? We've got work to do.

Damian: Yeah, we have got work to do here for sure. And yeah. So the most common issue that I found, is relative to colors. So from that, we know already that it's something that we should communicate about, if there's one thing we want to communicate about. But maybe that's going to be colors. If you look at the most common critical issue, that's the form labels. 23,000 cases. It has actually checked more than a thousand websites here, so yeah, you can see also the list of domains here and the number of violations for each. Could be a long read.

So the question now is, how do we best use this tool to actually improve web accessibility at MSU? I don't have an answer for that, but I think this is a good place to ask this question. I think it could be nice if we had a central server that people could use, do a request on, for an accessibility audit, and we could run that. Right now we have just this server that's running for the college of natural science. Also, I think, I mean, colleges could also have their own server and run their own audits as they want, I guess. And finally, everybody can just run that on their own machine. I mean, it's running with [inaudible 00:25:49]. So if you're familiar with that, you can just set it up quickly, and have the application run on your own machine and do your own audits like that. So there are various options.

Do you have any questions, comments?

Speaker 3: What's the engine that it's using underneath, is it like axe?

Damian: Yes. It's the axe library.

Speaker 3: What engine is it using underneath? You said axe?

Damian: Yes.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Damian: Yeah, one thing that I find interesting with axe, is that it doesn't report any false positive. So that means it's going to miss a lot of issues. We are seeing 300,000 issues here. That's not everything but there is a lot more. But, you know, it's a good start. And the thing is, it's nice to know that for sure, these are actual issues, and not things that might or might not be issues. So I think we've got plenty of work to do with just what's being reported here with axe.

Speaker 6: Can I ask one thing?

Damian: Yes.

Nate: So what I love about this story is you went to IT Next, you built this amazing thing. What's the biggest bit of value? If you could say one thing that you would want everyone here to take away? Why would it be valuable to use something like this?

Damian: It's useful to get statistics of a large number of websites. And it's free.

Nate: Those are good reasons.

Anybody else? Can we give Damian a hand?

Annette: I have a question for you, Nate. Are you going to find a central server to put this on?

Nate: That's part of why I asked Damian to come today and tell this story, is do you think you would leverage it, would you use it? And-

Annette: I'm pretty sure most of us would, yeah.

Nate: Yeah?

Annette: It's awesome Damian. I have two students that I could run a report on our different servers, and our different websites, and it would give them a place to start. If you can find a central server to put this on, where we could all access it, I think that, I see an awful lot of nodding heads in this room, that we would use it.

Nate: I like that. All right. Damian, that's what we were looking for.

Damian: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nate: All right we should have that conversation. Definitely. Thank you for that.

Susan: I work with the School of Social Work with some of my projects. I'm on the DigitalX Team on the course design. An instructional designer with Nate's team. So accessibility is part of instructional design work. And Paul Freddolino, in the School of Social Work, is doing a big accessibility push right now. So with a few instructors I'm involved. And he asked me to put together a site for the social work faculty, to make it a little easier and more digestible to just them and their needs, and that department. And so, they find that more useful than going to a site with too much and being overwhelmed.

So we've simplified it for them. And we did four webinars with Brooke. Brooke did Word and PowerPoint. I did D2L. And Nick and Alyssa did video. So we put on four webinars for the social work faculty. And then at the accessibility learning conference, I presented on the part I did with D2L. Did anybody go to my D2L session at ALC? Yeah. You guys are probably well beyond it. So I'm just communicating success stories of working with faculty on a low level, and how to get them on board, and make them feel comfortable. Because I see a lot of resistance with low tech faculty users. And if we can get them excited about it, or get them to see it in an easier way, just getting them in the door, I've seen at least two or three or four faculty in the area, now they're just, like Rebecca, or ... I mean, the name's eluding me. But a couple of the faculty are just right on board, and they are making everything they create now accessible. And they're going through their online courses and making them accessible.

And they've heard about accessibility for years, but they just kept being hesitant. So I think with the initiative that Paul is taking got it going, but I think the webinars were the biggest effect.

So we just put together this D2L course that tries to simplify things. And I know, as a faculty member, the first thing I wanted to do was see somebody using a screen reader. And so right away on the page it invites them to look at how somebody runs through D2L on a screen reader, and how a faculty member develops their content. And this is a blind faculty member developing content for accessibility in D2L. So that right away draws them in. And then in the content area, we pull in just some relevant things from the web accessibility site. But we tried not to overwhelm them. And so we just basically go to the basic checklist.

And then all the recorded webinars and training that we did for the faculty are listed here, and the dates that we offered them. I can ask Paul if he wants to distribute those and make them more widely available. And then we just simply decided to put a few things. What's the most important thing they need to know about Word? What's the most important thing they need to know about PowerPoint and Excel? PDFs and stable links? That's a big thing with the school of social work, is stable linking, and using the library resources. Because so many of them had scanned images as PDFs. So many. And even people who know better. And I would say something to them and nothing would happen. Nothing. And I'm still working with them on that, to try to work with their librarian and link to accessible PDFs and maybe get the scanned stuff, after it's gone through copyright filters to go through an OCR reader.

All right, so then D2L, of course, I put the site together, and I know too much about D2L, so obviously I overwhelmed and put too much here. So what I decided to do is, if you had nothing else to do, do these three. And then, I decided to put all the extra stuff that I am excited about and more resources, if they have time. So it keeps them focused. All right, if all I have to do is these three, I'm going to do these three. If I saw that entire list, I might not even start at all, because it's just too much. I'm talking in terms of the faculty members.

And then this is the stuff about video. So you can see it's digestible. Stuff about Office 365. They didn't even have Office 365 on their computers until about a month ago. Yeah.

All right, another thing that I have to show you is that in the instructor D2L self-directed training, there is an accessibility module. And in that accessibility module, just send me an email, we can add whatever you want here, and we have thousands of faculty accessing this site. Not thousands accessing this module, but thousands accessing the site. But we could try to maybe market it more, so they come in here and do this.

These are videos by D2L. These are videos by the college of education. And they have been in this site, regardless of whether you knew that or not, and then these are just our web access team sites that, again, I try to distill this for instructors using D2L. And then this is other resources.

Now D2L themselves have a lot of great resources, and the one I want to highlight the most is D2L dot com slash accessibility. So everybody here, because of your strong interest, I really encourage you to explore that site. And their accessibility interest group is really awesome. Carin Headrick, one of Nate's favorite people at D2L, she's just a delight to watch. Jim has been attending their monthly webinars. And so she interviews really high level people and important things.

Like, one of the Zoom sessions that I attended with her, she interviewed and talked about, not ARIA, but Aira, A-I-R-A, and D2L right now, currently, has a partnership with Aira, where a blind person can get a free access to the app on their phone. And what it is, you guys all know this probably, I'm talking to experts here, but a person with a visual disability has an app on their phone, and they walk around, and the agent on the other end tells them what they see. I mean, they literally can use it just to read the instructions on a pizza box. And D2L is partnered with them, so that anybody who uses D2L or is a client of D2L gets five minutes free for any use, not just their online courses, but for any use. They can get directions on walking to the library.

All you do is you download the app, and she demonstrated this in the accessibility interest group webinar, which I thought was valuable. And they literally showed the app, they showed the pull down, you say D2L, and you instantly have this free access. So at least it's for a year. Probably a marketing thing.

Speaker 10: It's five minutes at a time, not five minutes total.

Susan: Five minutes at a time, thank you. Yes. Yeah.

And Barry Dahl (https://community.brightspace.com/s/article/Setting-the-Stage-for-Improving-Accessibility-of-Online-Courses) has a really good series on improving accessibility, and there's a lot of really good blogs there. So, just another page real quick, as I end, is if you do look up the documentation on accessibility and navigation in D2L, this is the audience that is going to be the most interested. Faculty aren't interested in this depth. But go look at the depth they have, and it will show you how to navigate D2L with a keyboard, how to use all of these more advanced features right here. So I do encourage, or recommend that you go to this as well. And this is bright space help, it's documentation.brightspace.com. Just search for accessibility and you'll find this page.

And then, last, oh this was their site. D2L dot com accessibility. A lot of good stuff here. This is how you join the accessibility interest group. From this page.

So the accessibility learning conference was successful. I just told them four key things, or maybe six, key things to do while they're in D2L, and I was surprised. The audience members seriously appreciated to know on a D2L html page, you have one header one, and the rest are header twos. Like they didn't know this. So. We just have to keep sending the message out. Any questions?

Speaker 6: How would somebody gain access or get access to what you built with social work?

Susan: I have help desk admin, so I can access any system. So if you create a dev site, and you want me to copy the content into your dev site, and then you customize it to your own college, just send me an email, halicks, H-A-L-I-C-K-S. Okay.

James: All right, we're running out of time, and I just ... oh did you have another question? Quick one. I have a student from our team, Max, who's going to talk about working with faculty in his experience.

Max: Yeah, I started working with the DigitalX team at the beginning, or I guess at the end of the school year last year, and I worked with them all summer. And kind of at the beginning of a course remediation, I will meet with a faculty member, discuss what I'm going to do, and then go into the course. And always in that first initial meeting, at first they're hesitant, they don't really see why they need to do it. Especially because I'm working with the Pharmacology and Toxicology Department, so it's more medical, and they don't really get any students with disabilities in there.

So I kind of have to take a different turn to getting them to buy-in. And it turns a half hour meeting into an hour meeting, but we kind of discuss their field more, and I have them tell me stories, and we kind of have a back and forth, rather than just like strictly talking about accessibility. And it kind of helps them get more along the lines of actually seeing why it's important. Because in that I can kind of lay accessibility things into our discussion, and ease them into why it's important, and kind of explain that disability is the one area of life that you could enter into at any time. So even though there's no students now, they could always have some in the future, or anything like that. So just getting that connection with them, and making it not just all about work really helps get that by them.

Angela: So, this a perfect lead-in for the Resource Center for Persons with Disabilities. This is interesting when we hear ... first of all, thank you all for your work, so much. You really are impacting students. We've noticed in this past semester, a lot less remediation for our textbooks and materials of classes. And that's because of the work that all of you are doing, so thank you so much.

So faculty buy-in. We have been ... I feel like that's kind of a theme that goes around. We don't have any students with disabilities in our classes. Yes you do. Even if they don't disclose a VISA to you, or those types of things, sometimes it's because they're not comfortable. So, you know, we have I think this semester 2600 students registered with our office. And every single program on this campus. So even if you just have one student in your class, or several students in your class, this is so important, such important work.

So we've been talking about how to better get faculty buy-in. What can we do at the Resource Center for Persons with Disabilities to help faculty understand the importance of this. And I like what you were presenting about, here's some stories, here's someone using a screen reader. That is so important. So that's some of the things that we're working on now, is trying to create some videos to share on our website, of students, who are Michigan State students, who are going through courses, and the struggles, or some of the challenges that they're having in working through these courses.

Leslie: I mean, it would be students with all types of disabilities, so not just students who are blind or visually impaired. I mean, students with learning disabilities require assistive technology. A lot of students with psychiatric disabilities, or ADHD, autism, they all require some type of technology. So accessibility is important for everyone.

Angela: So I think it's important to share that, because I think there are myths out there that it's only for people who are blind. And that is so untrue. And just helping faculty to understand those factors are really important. I also wanted to mention about Aira. So that is something our office is looking into purchasing for campus. It's very expensive to purchase a campus license. It's $25,000. It would be a geo map around the entire Michigan State campus, and anyone who comes on campus, it would send an alert to their phone, and say, you can use unlimited service of Aira, whether it be for D2L, or traveling through campus, or looking at menus in the cafeteria, a lot of different aspects. So we're going to try to work with Aira because it's so expensive. We have no idea how many students are interested. We don't want to spend 25,000 dollars and have 10 students use it during the year. So, we're looking into a partnership with them. So I just wanted to share a little bit about that too.

Leslie: And I would say, the other thing too, is, when we've been talking about AIRA, is it could be way more than just students. I mean, think about on like a football game, how many people are on our campus and could benefit from that, or in the summer there's constant traffic to campus, families, visitors, people here for camps, or grandparent's university. So there's so many different situations where it could be really helpful to anyone. Even if you can visually see, you may still need help navigating this campus since it's so large.

Angela: Just one other thing about navigation on campus. Our office, in conjunction with Tower Guard, and CSD, Council of Students with Disabilities, we're going to be working on word maps for each building. So, word maps give the function of the building, the layout of the building, just some different things that visitors, or any student or faculty member, can, before you come to campus, you can know what is in Bessie Hall? And what is the layout of the building, and those types of things, to help just that navigation piece.

Leslie: And I would say the word maps are another good example of how it'll be helpful for a wide audience. A lot of students I work with psychiatric disabilities, it's so overwhelming for them to walk into a building they've never been in. So if they can kind of read about it, like when you walk in the building, on the left hand side will be offices, on the right hand side will be the classroom wing, and get sort of a full run down of what they can expect, it will help them to walk into that space and feel more comfortable.

Angela: Also, if you have any ideas for what you'd like us to share in future meetings, we like to talk. We like to share. And we love this collaboration and partnership. So please feel free to just message us, let us know.

Leslie: I know when Nate ever, when he always contacts us, before this meeting, he's like you guys want to talk? We're like, sure, but I don't know what to talk about. So we're always looking for ideas. So if there's anything you have questions about, we'd like to hear what those are and then we can speak to that. So.

Speaker 13: Like was mentioned earlier, it's weird not hearing myself, I'm speaking to experts so this has probably crossed minds before, but to your closing remarks about having to sell the idea of helping our students at a basic fundamental level is ... I've only had to have that argument once, but I pulled, and I don't like pulling the heinous card of, you're not doing your job right. But when I was asked years ago why accessibility was a necessity, and we don't have students with disabilities ... I'm medical, by the way, medical, COM, so that's where I'm coming from ... I was asked why do we need accessibility, we don't have, we're wasting money. And I said, even if we don't have a student now, you're not procuring, that's the wrong word, you're not setting up yourself for success if you're not putting every type of student in mind And I didn't want to shut them up, but at this point, we shouldn't have to justify something that has to be done. So, get mean, if you have to. Because you're not wrong. You're not in the wrong. You will not be fired for saying something that's completely accurate.

And to your point, about how 10 students using AI ... how do you say it? Aira? I don't know if this is a thing, but it sounds like based on this technology it's very possible, all these students that, all these people potentially that don't consider language a disability, they could ... I understand that everyone needs to know English in order to study here, but sometimes doing recreational things such as reading the schedule or the menu in not your native language, can be exhausting. And it's already a taxing method that we don't, as North American domestics don't think of necessarily. So that could be another thing to sell this for this whole $25,000 whatever. Just as a comment toward the last thing that you mentioned. I'm done, sorry, thank you.

James: Anyone else? I think we're done.